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Rusty Shallows
498
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Posted - 2013.11.17 07:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Still a crutch.
Are you talking about your armor/damage mod stacked gal logi with Assault Rifles? Nice.
"She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
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Rusty Shallows
499
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Posted - 2013.11.17 07:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Kasote Denzara wrote:It is only the Assault variants that need to be dealt with. They do too much in too little of time with not enough consequences. That's it. 2 options: -Switch the damage of the assault with the standard. -"Cancelling" a charge fires a weaker shot.
The held charge variants are terrible. 3.5 seconds is combat ineffective and always will be unless they severely reduce vehicle speeds. The argument on the damage switching was originally brought up as a back-door way to nerf the entire class of weapon.
No alpha damage weapon in this game should be able to instant fire, holding charge while taking time still results in the same thing in an around about way. That issue includes charged sniper rifles. Especially when a mouse is involved, some peoples aiming seems a little to good for a D3.
The Forge Gun weapon needs a redesign and update. The concepts of Assault, Standard, and Breach simply don't mesh.
"She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
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Rusty Shallows
499
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Posted - 2013.11.17 08:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote:Do you play this game? Forge guns are incredibly potent at taking out infantry if they can find an area where they can safely shoot down from. Give a Forge Gunner a tower and they've effectively shut down a huge swath of the map from both a vehicle perspective and an infantry objective perspective.
It's not an Anti Vehicle weapon, it's an Anti-Everything weapon.
I've seen people on Line Harvest trying to Tower Forge Gun Snipe. It has never swayed the battle once much less inflict casualties like those by people on ground level. I've gotten more kills shooting up at those sitting-duck bozos than receiving.
The times it can effectively kill while "Tower Sniping" are at heights that the ARs and ScRs can reach. Which still out DPS the splash.
As a fact the only times the unstoppable Tower Sniping has been pulled off is on single objectives on specific maps because the Dev design team never learned the lesson from the original Magnus Peak map with regards to sniper rifles. Even then the most they do is break the game by preventing any hacking, which is still pretty bad IMO. At that height you can't effectively snipe without a scope and the range actually matters since the hypotenuse can quickly out reach the weapon stats.
Foundation Seldon wrote:As for the topic at hand I do agree that the Assault variant of the weapon and the normal variant probably need their damage values switched and the Breach either needs significantly more damage or the assault and normal variants need their values nerfed in order to justify its use over the much more versatile alternatives. Or hell, why not just remove it?
If anything the Standard and Breach need to be removed. They are combat ineffective.
Foundation Seldon wrote:I do wonder though, would Forge Sniping need to be nerfed (from an infantry perspective) if deployable shields were a factor in this game? My main issue is with them able to get to a tower with repping nanohive support and them becoming EXTREMELY difficult to ever displace from that point on. Like I mentioned before they can quickly and easily 1hit KO any person trying to hack an objective in their sight ... but if we had shields we could hack an objective while covering ourselves from their fire.
If the Dev's let players fire through a deploy-able shield or even walk-through this game will become even more broken. I do like the idea of throwing up a shield while hacking. When map design fails give players options. Hopefully people won't be able to abuse them too much in other ways.
"She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
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Rusty Shallows
499
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Posted - 2013.11.17 10:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:
If anything the Standard and Breach need to be removed. They are combat ineffective.
lolno. Holding the charge with the standard or even bunny hopping with the breach is useful. You can't corner peak properly with the Assault. The Assaults also don't get to the near-broken state that they are until the prototype levels and that's because of the improper damage scaling that they have. The standard Forge Gun is cost-efficient against LAVs and infantry. The Breach is cost-efficient for taking out low-grade HAVs, a lot of dropships, and installations (though standard is fine for this). The Assault is just plain silly at the amount its doing now. It's cost-efficient towards destroying all vehicles, however
Excuse me did you just say fatties can bunny hop? We are talking about a suit that can actually have difficulty clearing low objects (i.e. curbs). Not to make light of an immobile weapon suddenly being able to move through and absurd glitch. I have to agree it is a useful glitch. However if this is such an issue then why haven't the Devs made fixing it a priority? My guess is they are looking at the weapon use statistics and decided to backlog it.
The Standard Forge Guns lost their effectiveness against LAVs after the last speed boost in Chromosome (or was it the build before that?). With the exception being an unfitted militia LAV. I was there when it happened. You could feel the reduction in the time to getting pancaked out-racing the charging time. It was a terrible time for a weapon which still had hit detection issues. As more of us got our hp-buff skills higher it was becoming common to needing more than one hit to kill LAVs. Seven or so seconds plus map terrain and road kill made life hard.
Anything with decent AV characteristics can take out low-end HAVs with no problem. That is a serious issue and a prime reason why an entire part of this game needed redesign.
The Standard Forge Guns are not good for taking out installations. Three or more shots is rediculously time communing. In that same time frame an AR with damage mods could take out three or more heavies suits easily. So I don't really see how this is cost effective.
What Breach have been able to do to dropships has always been wrong and I've always voiced concern about it. That doesn't make the weapon combat effective if it is a one or three trick pony in ares that doesn't really matter toward victory.
I'm not sure how to answer the argument that the prototype damages are broken. If your belief is that anything AV capable should never be a threat (or a very minor one unless in large numbers) to vehicles I can see the logic. Of course that would break the game for other reasons.
I stand by my statement that a base time of 3.5 second renders Forge Guns combat ineffective. My assault forge with max skills takes 1.87 seconds and I regularly die to an Assault Rifle before the shot gets off. Even Rail Turrets have had a reduction in their trigger pull time while FGs remained the same.
Holding a charge is useful, you are right about that. Being able to hold a charge with precision aim with a mouse is even worse. Neither of these make it any better than the AR or ScR in most combat situations. At most it is good for "lulz" while the people in the medium frames doing more dps that determine the battle.
Kasote Denzara wrote:Might as well remove everything but the Plasma Rifle if you refuse to acknowledge the purpose, strength, and weakness of the other weapons since they then become "combat ineffective".
No need for the hyperbole Kasote. I'm not your enemy unless you hate other people who use Forge Guns.
Just a few words from a guy from second round registered closed beta who still remembers FG shots passing through targets and not even register anywhere. My favorite FG bugs being early this year sneaking up on snipers and sometimes having the explosion animation go off with no damage.
"She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
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Rusty Shallows
499
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Posted - 2013.11.17 10:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Still a crutch. Are you talking about your armor/damage mod stacked gal logi with Assault Rifles? Nice. Fun fact: I ain't using a Gal Logi for the reason you just stated. I refuse to use a logi as an assault suit, anyone who knows me can tell you that I only run Gal and Amarr Assaults. Gal Assault isn't capable of both a decent tank and damage mods, I have to choose one or the other. The Amarr assault has higher eHP than my assault and same damage output, but is slower. So VoV
And yet you seem pretty amendment about defending the practice in your posts. Funny how that works out.
"She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
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Rusty Shallows
500
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Posted - 2013.11.17 10:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:snip
Forge guns are broken beyond any reasonable defence of them. Against tanks or against dropships. Big changes are needed.
Excuse me but it's pretty common knowledge that heavy suits are crap in competitive play. So stop with the invincibility melodrama.
Rendering issues have been a persistent problem. It has screwed over snipers pretty good. I can't wait until CCP fixes it and people realize Large Rails have a range more than three times Forge Guns, a faster shot velocity, and better splash. Because it has always been good times when a HAV from a perfectly safe position spams an area and someday when they can scope and clearly see everything it will get even better.
Can't help but notice you left out the part about how we currently have some armor tanking HAVs that might as well be invulnerable to all Forge Guns. So only the Forge Guns are broken, all of them, mainly because you have a vehicle they can hurt. Seems legit.
"She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
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Rusty Shallows
501
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Posted - 2013.11.17 11:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:"armor tanking + damage mod"
This is what 99% of Dust complains about, and I am sick and tired of this argument, as it isn't valid for assaults.
Fair enough.
Cat Merc wrote:In fact, I remember wolfman saying that they are considering turning rail guns (that includes forge) into a hit scan weapon, for that same reason.
At that point the direct damage would very likely need a nerf. Without another counter-balance they would completely ruin dropships otherwise. Going hitscan might actually make the arguments about the assault variant being over-powered true. Both Forge Guns and Rail Turrets would need a range reduction since hitting moving targets would become far easier. Neither of these weapons should ever replace the sniper rifle.
"She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
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Rusty Shallows
501
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Posted - 2013.11.17 11:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:assertions and straw men are hardly valid responses. Since your reply lacks relevance I shall ignore it.
What you can't win by logic you end with name calling and nearly baseless accusations. Classy.
"She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
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Rusty Shallows
503
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Posted - 2013.11.17 11:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:I had to go to pastebin to choppily add all of what I was going to say to Rusty. Ignore the quote crap. I initially did it here but lazily moved it. http://pastebin.com/VnrhNqdw
I've read the reply and understand we have our differences of opinion. My apologizes for going off about "bunny hopping" as it is a sore point for many of us fatties.
The only nitpick I have is if Advanced Forge Guns are effective anti-vehicle then you've only been shooting at new players using junk and are hungry for Vehicle Upgrades SP. I can spam an all BPO LAV (4 million plus sp in Vehicle Upgrades) that laughs at Forge Guns. In this current game build I've died more HAV impacts than FGs. With the missile nerf I'll even be riding pretty around the guys with high-end swarm launcher fittings.
Gunlogis which badly need buffing can tank the Dau Assault Forge Gun and that's the Advanced Assault Variant.
"She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
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